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Feature #386

Engine gimbal steering does not account for COT being over COM

Added by purpletarget about 11 years ago. Updated almost 8 years ago.

Status:
Closed
Severity:
High
Assignee:
-
Category:
Parts
Target version:
-
% Done:

100%

Platform:
Any
Expansion:
Mod Related:
No
Votes:
Arrow u r green
Arrow d r red

Description

What Happens:
When COM is lower than Centre of Thrust, the Yaw & Pitch Axis controls become effectively reversed. Rocket becomes uncontrollable without reversing all controls, and PID controllers like ASAS cannot function correctly.

What's really happening:
Engine gimbals seem to have no awareness of their location wrt COM. They continue to react to commands as if they were at the bottom of the rocket (below COM). But using the same steer direction at the bottom of the rocket, becomes a push on the nose of the rocket in the opposite direction than intended when placed higher than COM. (Gimbals may be working as programmed, but not as player-engineer/pilot may expect or intend)

How to reproduce:
Build any rocket with COT (Centre of Thrust) higher than COM. Attaching craft file as an example.
Launch from launchpad and low thrust to mostly hover.
Attempt to use yaw command to left, and note craft will yaw right instead. (Action of gimballing engines is also visibly in the wrong direction to "push" top of rocket in the intended direction)
Attempt to use yaw command right, and the craft will yaw left instead. Similar reversal will exist on pitch axis as well.

Suggested Remedies:
While specific tuning of various controls in the VAB may be a future feature, fixing the bug right now could probably be accomplished simply by making gimballed engines aware of the COM, and steer accordingly (reversing pitch/yaw vector if above COM). Expect upcoming wheel steering logic could be leveraged.

Notes:
Already have seen plenty of vehicles designed as skyhooks. Pending addition of Rovers will likely increase frequency of vehicles which have high mounted thrusters and a low COM for dropping payloads.

No effect on Yaw, since Gimbals have no roll authority yet. However, even if added, expect roll should not be affected by COM/COT relationship.

PT COG Thrust Vector Test.craft (13.4 KB) PT COG Thrust Vector Test.craft Test Craft with Centre Thrust Over Centre of Mass purpletarget, 03/14/2013 01:06 AM

Related issues

Has duplicate Kerbal Space Program - Bug #3887: Gimbaled engines mounted forward of a craft's center of mass do not angle properly in response to pitch/yaw input.Duplicate12/22/2014

History

#1 Updated by zxcvb55 about 11 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature

This is an issue that should probably be addressed, but like you said, there's room in the future for fine tuning the controls. I'll go ahead and put it in as a feature request, since it isn't as much a bug as it is a side-effect of the current implementation.

#2 Updated by purpletarget about 11 years ago

The fine tuning features later may still need this fix regardless. COM is dynamic, adjusting for that change automatically in flight may be needed anyways to keep craft from becoming uncontrollable as upper tanks drain.
Noticed in 0.19 there's a stock skycrane+rover vehicle which would suffer from this issue (doesn't only because probe torque overpowers the thrust vectoring)
Given the prevalence that skycrane types a likely to have, and that this feeds into control-ability / game-play, suspect this will become more important. Your call.

#3 Updated by DamionRayne about 11 years ago

  • Severity changed from Normal to High
  • Platform Windows added

I can confirm this happening on the most recent version of the game, during normal gameplay. Also this CoM/CoT switch causes the camera to switch back and forth a lot and is disorientating.

#4 Updated by Fel about 11 years ago

purpletarget wrote:

The fine tuning features later may still need this fix regardless. COM is dynamic, adjusting for that change automatically in flight may be needed anyways to keep craft from becoming uncontrollable as upper tanks drain.
Noticed in 0.19 there's a stock skycrane+rover vehicle which would suffer from this issue (doesn't only because probe torque overpowers the thrust vectoring)
Given the prevalence that skycrane types a likely to have, and that this feeds into control-ability / game-play, suspect this will become more important. Your call.

High mounted rockets really shouldn't be unusual to KSP (why build up when you can build down, it is the Kerbal way!)

Though, shouldn't the engine (in practice) adjust the gimbal angles based on the distance from the center of mass; and that would automatically fix this error?

#5 Updated by weekendgamer over 10 years ago

I can confirm this happens in 0.20 with an unmodified installation of KSP under normal use.

#6 Updated by triffid_hunter over 10 years ago

This affects skycranes. A workaround is to disable engine gimballing and add SAS rings

#7 Updated by Ruedii almost 10 years ago

This should probably be set to be platform all as it is not platform specific.

#8 Updated by RexKramer over 9 years ago

  • Version changed from 0.18.4 to 0.25
  • Platform Any added
  • Platform deleted (Windows)

Changed platform to Any and version to 0.25.

#9 Updated by RexKramer almost 9 years ago

  • Status changed from New to Resolved
  • % Done changed from 0 to 100

Engine gimbaling now appears to work in the correct direction regardless of location relative to COM, 1.0, OSX, used the LV-T45 to test.

#10 Updated by TriggerAu almost 8 years ago

  • Status changed from Resolved to Closed

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